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plipplop

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PostSubject: Re: Banks & Charges   Sun 12 Aug 2007, 16:30

I don't really understand why there is an expectation that banks should have to explain those charges. Do Tesco have to explain what the cost of a loaf of bread is, and then disclose the profit margin? Does local government tell you what's cost and what's profit when you get a parking ticket?

Banks are businesses. They're there to make money. If they decide to charge a 200 penalty fee, then as long as they tell people and give them the opportunity to avoid them, then they aren't doing anything wrong. The fact that people are claiming thousands and thousands in bank charges is simply an indication that people either ignore what they're told or don't read the terms and conditions properly - and that's entirely their own fault.
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helencbradshaw

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PostSubject: Re: Banks & Charges   Sun 12 Aug 2007, 16:49

charges have to be reasonable though..that's the issue, not that they exist.

I dont know how people claim thousands and thousands back, however. If I had paid that much in charges in six years, I would have been questioning my outgoings or my money management!
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drewboy
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PostSubject: Re: Banks & Charges   Sun 12 Aug 2007, 17:02

Here here Phil.

And Helen, one of my mates got 2500. A lot of the charges were racked up after taking his debit card (on the day the bank had told him to bring it back for abusing it) and going into EVERY shop on Buchanan Street (most expensive shops are there) and buying at least one thing.

I have heard of people getting upward of 6000 back. It's disgusting that people have allowed themselves to have that many charges in the first place - THEIR FAULT.

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helencbradshaw

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PostSubject: Re: Banks & Charges   Sun 12 Aug 2007, 17:06

Yep, that is plain silly...

It is charges on charges on charges for minor financial misdemeanors (or temporary poverty) I object to, lack of responsibility is another thing.
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freaklikeme

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PostSubject: Re: Banks & Charges   Sun 12 Aug 2007, 18:52

drewboy wrote:
Thats not the only part of the cycle that will encur charges though, ie the person who actually hits that button?

I'm not saying that the banks encur a what the charge down to the last penny, but these things add up right down to the call centre agent who has to spend half an hour trying to appease customers. And the BACS system levies charges too.

However, if you were told to say that it covers the hourly wage of an HSBC bank then thats the fault of that banks policy. I never said that when I worked customer service.

There were no Call Centres when i worked for HSBC (it was Midland Bank Plc at that point) all button pressing and form filling was done in branch..the old fashioned way..by far the best way in my opinioin..altho thats another discussion all together
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plipplop

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PostSubject: Re: Banks & Charges   Sun 12 Aug 2007, 23:44

helencbradshaw wrote:
charges have to be reasonable though..that's the issue, not that they exist.
Why?
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helencbradshaw

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PostSubject: Re: Banks & Charges   Mon 13 Aug 2007, 00:37

Because it is the ethical and correct thing to do....have fair contract terms..!
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plipplop

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PostSubject: Re: Banks & Charges   Mon 13 Aug 2007, 16:21

helencbradshaw wrote:
Because it is the ethical and correct thing to do....have fair contract terms..!

I don't see that.

To me, "Fair" means you do what you say you will, when you say you will do it and you treat everyone in a consistent way.

Banks tell you they will charge you for going overdrawn and by how much when you sign up and nobody is exempt from the fees. What's unfair about then doing it, when everyone can avoid ever having to pay the fee?
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freaklikeme

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PostSubject: Re: Banks & Charges   Mon 13 Aug 2007, 16:34

plipplop wrote:
Banks tell you they will charge you for going overdrawn and by how much when you sign up and nobody is exempt from the fees. What's unfair about then doing it, when everyone can avoid ever having to pay the fee?

I think its unfair because everyones nowadays needs a bank account..you cant really get away from having one..and altho they should charge..its the amount they charge that is unreasonable and unjustified..for example..you cant justify charging somebody 140 for bouncing 4 direct debits in one day..Ive worked for 2 Banks and i know from experience they are just after ways of lining their own pockets..they dont want to look after your money..they want to take it from you and make a profit hand over fist.

And the legislation about claiming back your bank charges just shows that the government knows that they are ripping customers off...otherwise it wouldnt be in place IMHO.
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plipplop

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PostSubject: Re: Banks & Charges   Mon 13 Aug 2007, 16:42

freaklikeme wrote:
I think its unfair because everyones nowadays needs a bank account..you cant really get away from having one..

True. Is it also the case that these days you can't really get away without an unauthorised overdraft or writing a cheque for funds you don't have? I don't think so.

freaklikeme wrote:
and altho they should charge..its the amount they charge that is unreasonable and unjustified..for example..you cant justify charging somebody 140 for bouncing 4 direct debits in one day

If you tell people what you charge, you can justify anything.

I quite fancy an Aston Martin. I don't think Aston Martin can justify those prices. Let's reduce them in price so that I can have one.

Whuh?

freaklikeme wrote:
Ive worked for 2 Banks and i know from experience they are just after ways of lining their own pockets..they dont want to look after your money..they want to take it from you and make a profit hand over fist...

I've worked for several companies and they all wanted to make profits and stop people stealing from them. It's disgusting.

freaklikeme wrote:
And the legislation about claiming back your bank charges just shows that the government knows that they are ripping customers off...otherwise it wouldnt be in place IMHO.

The suggestion that the government criticises anyone for ripping people off is like pot calling the kettle black.

My council tax is 2000 per year. That's NOT justified. But I have to pay it. That's unfair.

My bank account is free unless I try and steal money from the bank and spend what I don't have. That IS justified. I don't have to pay the charges if I don't steal from the bank. That's fair.

Do people who write cheques that will bounce also shoplift? It's the same thing. They're taking something that doesn't belong to them. Perhaps we should scrap fees and make unauthorised overdrafts a criminal offence instead? I wonder if people would actually start to take accountability for managing their own money then?
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Mauri



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PostSubject: Re: Banks & Charges   Mon 13 Aug 2007, 18:06

plipplop wrote:
helencbradshaw wrote:
Because it is the ethical and correct thing to do....have fair contract terms..!

I don't see that.

To me, "Fair" means you do what you say you will, when you say you will do it and you treat everyone in a consistent way.

Banks tell you they will charge you for going overdrawn and by how much when you sign up and nobody is exempt from the fees. What's unfair about then doing it, when everyone can avoid ever having to pay the fee?

Yes, but by law they are only allowed to charge you what it roughly costs to for them to administer the unauthorised overdraft ect. they are not doing this thye are using the charges as a means to increase their profits...this is why they are being challenged.
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drewboy
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PostSubject: Re: Banks & Charges   Mon 13 Aug 2007, 18:08

Mauri wrote:

Yes, but by law they are only allowed to charge you what it roughly costs to for them to administer the unauthorised overdraft ect. they are not doing this thye are using the charges as a means to increase their profits...this is why they are being challenged.

Is it actual law or just regulation?

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WormThatTurned

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PostSubject: Re: Banks & Charges   Mon 13 Aug 2007, 18:23

Another way the banks have been sneakily claiming profits is increasing mortgage exit fees. I moved my mortgage 8 years ago and the exit fee was 90 which was negligable considering the savings I was making in the reduced interest rate. My banks current exit fee is 295 which is a 200% increase. Wheres the justification other then trying to increase profits ??
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drewboy
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PostSubject: Re: Banks & Charges   Mon 13 Aug 2007, 18:34

WormThatTurned wrote:
Another way the banks have been sneakily claiming profits is increasing mortgage exit fees. I moved my mortgage 8 years ago and the exit fee was 90 which was negligable considering the savings I was making in the reduced interest rate. My banks current exit fee is 295 which is a 200% increase. Wheres the justification other then trying to increase profits ??

And how much has your house gone up in that time, largly due to the Banks giving more mortgage loans?

The change in mortgage charging is very much down to the cost of actually getting customers. It's funny how customers will hunt around for mortgage deals, go for the ones that are pretty much running at base rate (ie a LOSS for the Bank) and then complain about the exit fee that would easily be MORE than covered by equivalent rises in proerty prices.

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freaklikeme

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PostSubject: Re: Banks & Charges   Mon 13 Aug 2007, 19:18

x


Last edited by on Mon 13 Aug 2007, 19:21; edited 1 time in total
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freaklikeme

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PostSubject: Re: Banks & Charges   Mon 13 Aug 2007, 19:20

plipplop wrote:
freaklikeme wrote:
I think its unfair because everyones nowadays needs a bank account..you cant really get away from having one..

True. Is it also the case that these days you can't really get away without an unauthorised overdraft or writing a cheque for funds you don't have? I don't think so.

freaklikeme wrote:
and altho they should charge..its the amount they charge that is unreasonable and unjustified..for example..you cant justify charging somebody 140 for bouncing 4 direct debits in one day

If you tell people what you charge, you can justify anything.

I quite fancy an Aston Martin. I don't think Aston Martin can justify those prices. Let's reduce them in price so that I can have one.

Whuh?

freaklikeme wrote:
Ive worked for 2 Banks and i know from experience they are just after ways of lining their own pockets..they dont want to look after your money..they want to take it from you and make a profit hand over fist...

I've worked for several companies and they all wanted to make profits and stop people stealing from them. It's disgusting.

freaklikeme wrote:
And the legislation about claiming back your bank charges just shows that the government knows that they are ripping customers off...otherwise it wouldnt be in place IMHO.

The suggestion that the government criticises anyone for ripping people off is like pot calling the kettle black.

My council tax is 2000 per year. That's NOT justified. But I have to pay it. That's unfair.

My bank account is free unless I try and steal money from the bank and spend what I don't have. That IS justified. I don't have to pay the charges if I don't steal from the bank. That's fair.

Do people who write cheques that will bounce also shoplift? It's the same thing. They're taking something that doesn't belong to them. Perhaps we should scrap fees and make unauthorised overdrafts a criminal offence instead? I wonder if people would actually start to take accountability for managing their own money then?

Sorry Plipplop but...Bull to most of it...Council Tax is a bill..like your electricity, water rates and gas and so on...if you choose to live in area that charges you 2000 per year then on your head be it..there is nothing unfair about that..

As for stealing..piffle..How can you steal your own money..which in effect it is..because the minute you credit your account the monies you owe are taken straight back...from your own pocket

And you CANNOT justify charges just by telling people at the outset what you charge!!..to justify means to be just and right , to justify something as necessary, to be reasonable and provide proof..and we all know that the end does not always justify the means

As for likening people who have cheques bounce on them to shoplifters..for gods sake!![/quote]
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freaklikeme

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PostSubject: Re: Banks & Charges   Mon 13 Aug 2007, 19:25

Mauri wrote:

Yes, but by law they are only allowed to charge you what it roughly costs to for them to administer the unauthorised overdraft ect. they are not doing this thye are using the charges as a means to increase their profits...this is why they are being challenged.

Finally, someone who talks sense..
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drewboy
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PostSubject: Re: Banks & Charges   Mon 13 Aug 2007, 19:58

If people go into an unautherised overdraft, it is NOT their money to take. Regardless of when they will get paid. I honestly cannot believe you can say that after working in a bank. They only have money ONCE they have been paid - not on the potential that they will get paid. Just because they will get paid two, three or four days later, does not give them the right to draw money via cheque or debit card - on fact, it is very explicity stated in the vast majority of T&C's that they are not permitted to do that.

Yet people do.

People who write cheque's knowing that they do not have the money in their
account ARE no better than shoplifters. They are stealing money that is not theirs.

It really is that simple.

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PostSubject: Re: Banks & Charges   Mon 13 Aug 2007, 20:47

drewboy wrote:
WormThatTurned wrote:
Another way the banks have been sneakily claiming profits is increasing mortgage exit fees. I moved my mortgage 8 years ago and the exit fee was 90 which was negligable considering the savings I was making in the reduced interest rate. My banks current exit fee is 295 which is a 200% increase. Wheres the justification other then trying to increase profits ??

And how much has your house gone up in that time, largly due to the Banks giving more mortgage loans?

The change in mortgage charging is very much down to the cost of actually getting customers. It's funny how customers will hunt around for mortgage deals, go for the ones that are pretty much running at base rate (ie a LOSS for the Bank) and then complain about the exit fee that would easily be MORE than covered by equivalent rises in proerty prices.

The mortgage exit fee is profiteering pure and simple. What has house prices got to do with anything ? They have only increased them many, many times the rate of inflation because customers were swapping lenders at the end of the tie in period to save themselves money.
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PostSubject: Re: Banks & Charges   Mon 13 Aug 2007, 20:51

WormThatTurned wrote:


The mortgage exit fee is profiteering pure and simple. What has house prices got to do with anything ? They have only increased them many, many times the rate of inflation because customers were swapping lenders at the end of the tie in period to save themselves money.

And how exactly do you think the stupidly low mortgage deals are paid for? Sorry, this one is not on. Consumers cannot have it all ways, all of the time.

Mortgages are by and large loss leaders - that is established fact, well known in the mortgage market. (without sounding too much like Phil, I know this as I was a mortgage advisor for 6 years - there in no money in them in the current market).

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PostSubject: Re: Banks & Charges   Mon 13 Aug 2007, 20:56

drewboy wrote:
If people go into an unautherised overdraft, it is NOT their money to take. Regardless of when they will get paid. I honestly cannot believe you can say that after working in a bank. They only have money ONCE they have been paid - not on the potential that they will get paid. Just because they will get paid two, three or four days later, does not give them the right to draw money via cheque or debit card - on fact, it is very explicity stated in the vast majority of T&C's that they are not permitted to do that.

Yet people do.

People who write cheque's knowing that they do not have the money in their
account ARE no better than shoplifters. They are stealing money that is not theirs.

It really is that simple.

All sensible Drew but what about those who think they do have the money in their account and write a cheque believing the money is there? They send a cheque to Mr so and so, they fail to cash it until weeks later so your account goes overdrawn. Are these people shoplifters? On another thread on burglary we talk about motive and the sentence befitting the crime and I do not think banks do that IMO.
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drewboy
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PostSubject: Re: Banks & Charges   Mon 13 Aug 2007, 21:01

dididave wrote:


All sensible Drew but what about those who think they do have the money in their account and write a cheque believing the money is there? They send a cheque to Mr so and so, they fail to cash it until weeks later so your account goes overdrawn. Are these people shoplifters? On another thread on burglary we talk about motive and the sentence befitting the crime and I do not think banks do that IMO.

Well, when I was on a customer service line, I would have taken that into account and as long as its not a regular occurance, they would have got their money back. I think it was Helen that said when she got charged, it was a one off and she got it back?

If poeple do that on a regular basis its a different story. They are being careless. But let me assure you there are a lot of people who will not think twice about writing a cheque knowing they do not have the funds there.

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dididave

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PostSubject: Re: Banks & Charges   Mon 13 Aug 2007, 21:03

drewboy wrote:
dididave wrote:


All sensible Drew but what about those who think they do have the money in their account and write a cheque believing the money is there? They send a cheque to Mr so and so, they fail to cash it until weeks later so your account goes overdrawn. Are these people shoplifters? On another thread on burglary we talk about motive and the sentence befitting the crime and I do not think banks do that IMO.

Well, when I was on a customer service line, I would have taken that into account and as long as its not a regular occurance, they would have got their money back. I think it was Helen that said when she got charged, it was a one off and she got it back?

If poeple do that on a regular basis its a different story. They are being careless. But let me assure you there are a lot of people who will not think twice about writing a cheque knowing they do not have the funds there.

On that I would not argue Drew, I think their are not as many people on customer service like yourself though in my experience.
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freaklikeme

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PostSubject: Re: Banks & Charges   Mon 13 Aug 2007, 22:40

There probably are a lot of people who issue cheques knowing there are insufficient funds to cover it...but we live in a society where debt is a huge problem..mainly because the money lenders/Banks have made it all too easy for people who should not be allowed to borrow money, have it..and there the ones they like best..the ones who they get their yearly profit sharing from!

There was a programme not to long back on how the Financial Institutions knowingly target people from lower wages brackets with loan/credit card/overdraft offers..because they know they will make there money through monthly interest/fees and so on..because of the customers inability to pay..and that came from a woman manager high up in the Financial Service sector..they make there profits through the likes of those that only pay minimum payments and on the odd occasion make late payments and get landed with charges..

I dont have any credit cards or bank loans or store cards..because i aint being taken for a mug by anyone...if i want it i pay cash for it..no fee grabbing moron is lining their pockets with my hard earned cash.
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freaklikeme

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PostSubject: Re: Banks & Charges   Mon 13 Aug 2007, 22:56

And can i just say i used to work for a Bank...the words "USED TO" are very relevant..because i didnt agree with the way they charged customer or there campaigns to get people to take loans and overdrafts and credit cards..bombarding customers with choices just to line their pockets..

Apparently they make 1.3 billion in bank charges every year..how bloody obscene is that...

And at the end of the day this discussion still boils down to the fact that Legally, banks can charge you for going into unauthorised borrowing, but only for what it costs them to deal with this.

And i still dont believe it costs 35 to return a BACS payment or any other payment for that matter..well...obviously it doesnt..because otherwise all these people wouldnt be able to claim their money back would they?!

I mean how much cost is incurred in generating and sending out a letter telling you that an item has bounced..a letter that isnt even signed?!..and then pressing a button to reverse the payment..it aint rocket science and it take seconds..

Lets face it..at the end of the day bank charges are a method of recovering global losses on personal banking..cus Bank Managers mess up and lend the wrong money to the wrong people
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