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 Free Speech v. Racist Rant-What's Race got to do with it?

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plipplop

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PostSubject: Re: Free Speech v. Racist Rant-What's Race got to do with it?   Sat 03 Nov 2007, 23:04

Mauri wrote:

Interesting....so let's assume someone has been brought up in a racist family/society and they grow up with the idea that Black people are inferior and say not to be trusted, they will instinctively think of black people in these terms..are they racist?

Whoah! Please tell me you are not suggesting I was brought up to be gay?
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Mauri



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PostSubject: Re: Free Speech v. Racist Rant-What's Race got to do with it?   Mon 05 Nov 2007, 14:53

plipplop wrote:
Mauri wrote:

Interesting....so let's assume someone has been brought up in a racist family/society and they grow up with the idea that Black people are inferior and say not to be trusted, they will instinctively think of black people in these terms..are they racist?

Whoah! Please tell me you are not suggesting I was brought up to be gay?

Of course not although the nature/nurture element of 'gayness' has still not been resolved and probably never will but that's a whole other debate.

I can see your point of course and to an extent I'm playing devil's advocate but I still think there is something 'uncomfortable' in saying 'I don't find blacks unattractive'....

Going back to what I asked earlier, which nobody answered... would you say that 'I find Jews unattractive' was a racist statement?
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plipplop

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PostSubject: Re: Free Speech v. Racist Rant-What's Race got to do with it?   Mon 05 Nov 2007, 19:55

Mauri wrote:

I can see your point of course and to an extent I'm playing devil's advocate but I still think there is something 'uncomfortable' in saying 'I don't find blacks unattractive'....

Going back to what I asked earlier, which nobody answered... would you say that 'I find Jews unattractive' was a racist statement?

Yes - I think there's a difference. Whether it's politically correct to say it or not, black men are distinguishable by the colour of their skin. If you're not programmed to find it attractive, then that's not a conscious choice. Jewish men could well look a lot different to one another (presumably there are both white and black Jews, for example). One is attractiveness based on a physical attribute; the other is attractiveness based on a decision around someone's race. I think they're very different things.
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butters

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PostSubject: Re: Free Speech v. Racist Rant-What's Race got to do with it?   Mon 05 Nov 2007, 22:36

It is not racist to say black people are unattractive. To group them all together and say they never are could be classed as racist depending on how you say it, though in some cases no, it is just an opinion and not necessarily meant to be wrong.
It is just a choice, saying you don't find black people attractive is no more wrong than saying that you do not find blond people attractive. People have preferences. For example, i prefer brunettes to blonde's, and i generally find white people more attractive than black people (although Rihanna and Beyonce are).

That is because it is based on a physical attribute and people make too big a deal of race. If someone said they did not find black people's personalities to be nice, that would be racist since it is internal. For example, saying you find Jew's attractive.

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spoilt_little_brat

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PostSubject: Re: Free Speech v. Racist Rant-What's Race got to do with it?   Tue 06 Nov 2007, 00:49

I wouldnt say I dont find Jews attractive because that is not a physical feature its a religion :s
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Mauri



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PostSubject: Re: Free Speech v. Racist Rant-What's Race got to do with it?   Tue 06 Nov 2007, 13:02

spoilt_little_brat wrote:
I wouldnt say I dont find Jews attractive because that is not a physical feature its a religion :s

Well no Jews are also classed as a race in the same way that 'blacks' are. You often hear talk about the 'Jewish race' you could also argue that there is an identifiable jewish 'look' which is common to the majority of jews which probably is as common to all jews as some features are common to all blacks.

I can see that obvioulsy 'blackness' is a common feature amongst blacks but then the is a huge variation in the skin tones of what we would categorise as 'black' people. Lewis Hamilton is 'black' but has relatively light coloured skin while Naomi Campbell has much darker skin... I dare say that there are some 'white' people who end up with darker skin than some 'black' people.
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WormThatTurned

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PostSubject: Re: Free Speech v. Racist Rant-What's Race got to do with it?   Tue 06 Nov 2007, 13:17

Thats flawed logic Mauri.

You cannot tell someone is Jewish by looking at them if they are not wearing religious garb. I am Jewish yet noone would be able to tell unless I told them because Im not a practising Jew.

Whereas you cannot look at a black person and fail to know they are black.
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Mauri



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PostSubject: Re: Free Speech v. Racist Rant-What's Race got to do with it?   Tue 06 Nov 2007, 15:27

WormThatTurned wrote:
Thats flawed logic Mauri.

You cannot tell someone is Jewish by looking at them if they are not wearing religious garb. I am Jewish yet noone would be able to tell unless I told them because Im not a practising Jew.

Whereas you cannot look at a black person and fail to know they are black.

Not really... what you say may be true but then people in the past have tried to indentify Jewish racial characteristics leading to disastrous results...

People still might have preconceived (maybe misconceived) notions of what a Jewish person looks like, dark hair, dark features, large nose... So in this case what's the answer to the question is saying "I find Jews unattractive" a racist statement...?
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WormThatTurned

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PostSubject: Re: Free Speech v. Racist Rant-What's Race got to do with it?   Tue 06 Nov 2007, 19:58

Mauri wrote:
WormThatTurned wrote:
Thats flawed logic Mauri.

You cannot tell someone is Jewish by looking at them if they are not wearing religious garb. I am Jewish yet noone would be able to tell unless I told them because Im not a practising Jew.

Whereas you cannot look at a black person and fail to know they are black.


People still might have preconceived (maybe misconceived) notions of what a Jewish person looks like, dark hair, dark features, large nose... So in this case what's the answer to the question is saying "I find Jews unattractive" a racist statement...?

I couldnt make head nor tail of the latter half of that paragraph !!
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plipplop

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PostSubject: Re: Free Speech v. Racist Rant-What's Race got to do with it?   Tue 06 Nov 2007, 20:56

Mauri wrote:
WormThatTurned wrote:
Thats flawed logic Mauri.

You cannot tell someone is Jewish by looking at them if they are not wearing religious garb. I am Jewish yet noone would be able to tell unless I told them because Im not a practising Jew.

Whereas you cannot look at a black person and fail to know they are black.

Not really... what you say may be true but then people in the past have tried to indentify Jewish racial characteristics leading to disastrous results...

People still might have preconceived (maybe misconceived) notions of what a Jewish person looks like, dark hair, dark features, large nose... So in this case what's the answer to the question is saying "I find Jews unattractive" a racist statement...?

No - I think that's saying "I don't find people with dark hair, dark features and large noses attractive. Sometimes they may be Jewish. Sometimes they may not."

If I used the term "black man" I'd simply be referring to the fact that he was black. Any other inference around race, religion etc is entirely the other person's interpretation. I'd be quite happy for a black man / woman to say that he / she didn't find white men attractive. I don't think it would be logical to say, " I don't find English people attractive" or "I don't find Christians attractive". I think the issue is only as complicated as you want to make it. To me, saying you don't find a clearly physical feature unattractive is unambiguous.
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Mauri



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PostSubject: Re: Free Speech v. Racist Rant-What's Race got to do with it?   Wed 07 Nov 2007, 11:49

plipplop wrote:
Mauri wrote:
WormThatTurned wrote:
Thats flawed logic Mauri.

You cannot tell someone is Jewish by looking at them if they are not wearing religious garb. I am Jewish yet noone would be able to tell unless I told them because Im not a practising Jew.

Whereas you cannot look at a black person and fail to know they are black.

Not really... what you say may be true but then people in the past have tried to indentify Jewish racial characteristics leading to disastrous results...

People still might have preconceived (maybe misconceived) notions of what a Jewish person looks like, dark hair, dark features, large nose... So in this case what's the answer to the question is saying "I find Jews unattractive" a racist statement...?

No - I think that's saying "I don't find people with dark hair, dark features and large noses attractive. Sometimes they may be Jewish. Sometimes they may not."

If I used the term "black man" I'd simply be referring to the fact that he was black. Any other inference around race, religion etc is entirely the other person's interpretation. I'd be quite happy for a black man / woman to say that he / she didn't find white men attractive. I don't think it would be logical to say, " I don't find English people attractive" or "I don't find Christians attractive". I think the issue is only as complicated as you want to make it. To me, saying you don't find a clearly physical feature unattractive is unambiguous.

I suppose what I'm saying is that the term Black is ambiguous since there is a great variation in the way 'Black' people look including the tone of their skin. If the colour of skin is the only criteria for saying 'a black man' is unattractive then I assume you don't find many asians attractive either.

Also using the term 'black' is racial wether you intend it to be or not, that is the way the term is used and understood.
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Mauri



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PostSubject: Re: Free Speech v. Racist Rant-What's Race got to do with it?   Wed 07 Nov 2007, 11:55

WormThatTurned wrote:
Mauri wrote:
WormThatTurned wrote:
Thats flawed logic Mauri.

You cannot tell someone is Jewish by looking at them if they are not wearing religious garb. I am Jewish yet noone would be able to tell unless I told them because Im not a practising Jew.

Whereas you cannot look at a black person and fail to know they are black.


People still might have preconceived (maybe misconceived) notions of what a Jewish person looks like, dark hair, dark features, large nose... So in this case what's the answer to the question is saying "I find Jews unattractive" a racist statement...?

I couldnt make head nor tail of the latter half of that paragraph !!
Let me try again...

1) Many people have preconceived ideas of what a Jewish person looks like, they may say he/she looks 'Jewish'...

2) Often this is associated with the (mistaken) belief that the majority of Jewish people are dark haired, have dark features and may have large noses.

3) Bearing this in mind someone could say 'I don't find Jews attractive', would this be racist?

I hope that is better explained.
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plipplop

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PostSubject: Re: Free Speech v. Racist Rant-What's Race got to do with it?   Sat 10 Nov 2007, 16:16

Mauri wrote:


I suppose what I'm saying is that the term Black is ambiguous since there is a great variation in the way 'Black' people look including the tone of their skin. If the colour of skin is the only criteria for saying 'a black man' is unattractive then I assume you don't find many asians attractive either.

Also using the term 'black' is racial wether you intend it to be or not, that is the way the term is used and understood.

It's only ambiguous if you choose to make it so. Black skin may encompass a range of tones, but everyone knows what you mean when you say black skin so I don't have any issues with confusion around this one.

I don't find Asian men attractive either, no - nor, in fact, am I attracted to Oriental men. Incidentally, it's not JUST the skin colour. There are lots of other physical attributes common to black / Asian / Oriental men that I find unattractive, but the detail is (ahem) unnecessary to the debate.
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