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 We are all born equal right?

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dididave

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PostSubject: We are all born equal right?   Tue 06 Nov 2007, 14:33

This is a popular theory yet in my mind it is the biggest load of crap ever. Does anyone actually believe this?
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Mauri



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PostSubject: Re: We are all born equal right?   Tue 06 Nov 2007, 15:28

dididave wrote:
This is a popular theory yet in my mind it is the biggest load of crap ever. Does anyone actually believe this?

What do you mean by it...?
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WendyBull

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PostSubject: Re: We are all born equal right?   Tue 06 Nov 2007, 16:00

I can't see why it wouldn't be true. Everyone is born the same (except for medical issues I guess) and it is their upbringing that bends and shapes them.
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dididave

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PostSubject: Re: We are all born equal right?   Tue 06 Nov 2007, 17:02

Mauri wrote:
dididave wrote:
This is a popular theory yet in my mind it is the biggest load of crap ever. Does anyone actually believe this?

What do you mean by it...?

Well...popular theory is that we are all born equal and it is our upbringing etc that shapes us from there. I disagree with this and would say that we are unequal way before that. How we are treated during pregnancy for example can affect us before we are born. Genetically we are all different and from the point of conception we are fundamentally unequal in a variety of ways. Society has an impact on use way before birth and the concept of us all being the same at the start is flawed IMO.
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WendyBull

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PostSubject: Re: We are all born equal right?   Tue 06 Nov 2007, 17:06

But surely the only influence on us when we are in the womb is medical and if we are talking about being socially equal at birth then that would be true I think. Medically we are very very different!
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Mauri



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PostSubject: Re: We are all born equal right?   Tue 06 Nov 2007, 17:20

WendyBull wrote:
But surely the only influence on us when we are in the womb is medical and if we are talking about being socially equal at birth then that would be true I think. Medically we are very very different!

Well obviously in practical terms we are not equal...someone born in a shanty town in say South Africa is not 'equal' to another born in an affluent western country.

As far as nurture and nature comes in to it lets say in terms of intelligence my old biology Prof at Uni used to reckon about 20% genes and 80% environment but that was a guess... it's really difficult to know.

I think the more important question is are we born or should we be born with equal rights to achieve what potential we innately have, and the answer to that is YES we should but for many that is not the case.
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WendyBull

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PostSubject: Re: We are all born equal right?   Tue 06 Nov 2007, 17:39

but no matter where we are born surely we are all equal in the split second we come into the world. it is then the environment that we are brought up in that changes us to what we become in most cases.

and yes i agree we should all be given the potential and oppertunity to achieve something different but that is up to environment etc as well.
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Mauri



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PostSubject: Re: We are all born equal right?   Tue 06 Nov 2007, 17:48

WendyBull wrote:
but no matter where we are born surely we are all equal in the split second we come into the world. it is then the environment that we are brought up in that changes us to what we become in most cases.


I suppose it depends what you mean by 'equal'.

Physically to a great extent we are not, intellectually yes to a great extent I think we are but not completely, socially we are not...

I think we should all be considered equal and have equal rights in law etc. but that is different to what Dave is saying...I think...
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WendyBull

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PostSubject: Re: We are all born equal right?   Tue 06 Nov 2007, 17:56

true, I am thinking we are equal in terms of what we know, and what we are able to achieve at the moment of birth. Once we are in the world it is dependent upon circumstances.
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Mauri



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PostSubject: Re: We are all born equal right?   Tue 06 Nov 2007, 18:45

WendyBull wrote:
true, I am thinking we are equal in terms of what we know, and what we are able to achieve at the moment of birth. Once we are in the world it is dependent upon circumstances.

To an extent yes but some people are born with more potential for achieving at some kinds of activities than others are and no amount of environmental conditioning will overcome that. Although in most cases I think environmental factors will be the defining influence.

For instance say you could set up the perfect experiment...take two babies from birth bring them up in exactly the same way teach them to play the piano for instance in exactly the same way using the same methods I bet that when they are adults one of them will be a better piano player than the other (even if it is only slightly) this would be the effect of the genetic difference between them. Now of course in reality you could never subject both children to exactly the same environment so you could never really prove it one way or the other...
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WendyBull

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PostSubject: Re: We are all born equal right?   Tue 06 Nov 2007, 20:10

yeah, that makes sense putting it that way.
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plipplop

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PostSubject: Re: We are all born equal right?   Tue 06 Nov 2007, 20:57

dididave wrote:
This is a popular theory yet in my mind it is the biggest load of crap ever. Does anyone actually believe this?

No. I am clearly quite superior and was born that way. Smile
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Ciao's Favourite Member



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PostSubject: Re: We are all born equal right?   Tue 06 Nov 2007, 23:12

You too, Phil?

Are you in the same "better than other people" club that I am? Wink
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butters

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PostSubject: Re: We are all born equal right?   Tue 06 Nov 2007, 23:47

WendyBull wrote:
I can't see why it wouldn't be true. Everyone is born the same (except for medical issues I guess) and it is their upbringing that bends and shapes them.

But their upbringing would stem from the parents and their love etc.
Someone who is born into a wealthy family will no doubt be able to get better medical care, education and a better quality of life, than someone who is born into a poor family.

If a rich family gave birth to a child, that child could have a better quality of life right from the start, than say if that same family was poor because many things only money can buy.

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drewboy
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PostSubject: Re: We are all born equal right?   Wed 07 Nov 2007, 00:37

butters wrote:


But their upbringing would stem from the parents and their love etc.
Someone who is born into a wealthy family will no doubt be able to get better medical care, education and a better quality of life, than someone who is born into a poor family.

If a rich family gave birth to a child, that child could have a better quality of life right from the start, than say if that same family was poor because many things only money can buy.

You know, I don't agree. My family was without a doubt middle class from the offset however I have always had an NHS doctor and dentist, and went through state funded education.

There has been nothing wrong with my standard of living at any point in my life and it is not been because my parents had money. Similarly, one of my mates who came from a single parent family who relied on benefits etc, went to the same doctor/dentist, and had the exact same education.

With all the moaning about the basics we have in Britain, we DO all have access to what we need (well, in my experience anyway).

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butters

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PostSubject: Re: We are all born equal right?   Wed 07 Nov 2007, 01:08

I am not moaning and am pretty much in the same position as you were really.

But then there are people who can not afford even the basics. Not many in Britain, no, but they do exist. The vast, vast majority has what they need, but a small minority does not.

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Mauri



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PostSubject: Re: We are all born equal right?   Wed 07 Nov 2007, 11:58

butters wrote:
I am not moaning and am pretty much in the same position as you were really.

But then there are people who can not afford even the basics. Not many in Britain, no, but they do exist. The vast, vast majority has what they need, but a small minority does not.

Actually looking at the wider world I think the vast majority probably don't have what they need, we I think are quite priviliged...
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helencbradshaw

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PostSubject: Re: We are all born equal right?   Wed 07 Nov 2007, 14:19

I would think the vast majority definitely do not have what they need...

That said, and despite therequirement for basic human needs, food, water, shelter etc, measuring "wealth" by GDP as we traditionally do in the West is probably quite flawed.
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dididave

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PostSubject: Re: We are all born equal right?   Wed 07 Nov 2007, 14:22

helencbradshaw wrote:
I would think the vast majority definitely do not have what they need...

That said, and despite therequirement for basic human needs, food, water, shelter etc, measuring "wealth" by GDP as we traditionally do in the West is probably quite flawed.

Hugely flawed I would say. Having a level of wealth or financial security does not guarantee anything. It is how the wealth is implemented that matters.
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Mauri



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PostSubject: Re: We are all born equal right?   Wed 07 Nov 2007, 14:40

dididave wrote:
Mauri wrote:
dididave wrote:
This is a popular theory yet in my mind it is the biggest load of crap ever. Does anyone actually believe this?

What do you mean by it...?

Well...popular theory is that we are all born equal and it is our upbringing etc that shapes us from there. I disagree with this and would say that we are unequal way before that. How we are treated during pregnancy for example can affect us before we are born. Genetically we are all different and from the point of conception we are fundamentally unequal in a variety of ways. Society has an impact on use way before birth and the concept of us all being the same at the start is flawed IMO.

So assuming we accept this idea of not being 'equal', do you think it is harmful to society to have the idea of equality in policy making or do you think policies should somehow reflect the inequality that exists...

I'm really asking if there was anything behind your original question which would lead on from what you said.
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dididave

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PostSubject: Re: We are all born equal right?   Wed 07 Nov 2007, 15:08

Mauri wrote:
dididave wrote:
Mauri wrote:
dididave wrote:
This is a popular theory yet in my mind it is the biggest load of crap ever. Does anyone actually believe this?

What do you mean by it...?

Well...popular theory is that we are all born equal and it is our upbringing etc that shapes us from there. I disagree with this and would say that we are unequal way before that. How we are treated during pregnancy for example can affect us before we are born. Genetically we are all different and from the point of conception we are fundamentally unequal in a variety of ways. Society has an impact on use way before birth and the concept of us all being the same at the start is flawed IMO.

So assuming we accept this idea of not being 'equal', do you think it is harmful to society to have the idea of equality in policy making or do you think policies should somehow reflect the inequality that exists...

I'm really asking if there was anything behind your original question which would lead on from what you said.

I think TBH that equality in policy is the ideal we should be aiming for. We know we do not start off or end up equal, but there is nowt wrong with having an ideal in which we strive to be given equal opportunities. I think policies should have a degree of realism in what they can achieve, and I am not a believer in equality by inequality such as in the case of positive discrimination in the police force for example.

I think it is one of the endearing and reassuring features of an otherwise, largely destructive humanity that so many of us strive to give everyone an equal chance in life.
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atticusuk

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PostSubject: Re: We are all born equal right?   Wed 07 Nov 2007, 15:37

Ciao's Favourite Member wrote:
You too, Phil?

Are you in the same "better than other people" club that I am? Wink

Sounds similar to my own club "the considerably better than your club" club. Although I'm thinking of joining the "probably the best club of people ever" mainly due to the drinking opportunities.
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bandcamp

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PostSubject: Re: We are all born equal right?   Tue 13 Nov 2007, 16:13

Nah, you want drinking opportunities then you've gotta join the 'bow down before me, minions' club.

Not quite on par with the 'I am a tormented genius' club, but they have more drugs than booze, and as a result are a lot more irritating. Best steer clear of them, until we are plentiful in numbers in which to take over and we can flush their stashes. Or sell them back to them for more booze mwahahaha
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