Pensioners in prison

Yeah I agree they had to put her away or there would be millions of people trying it on.

spoilt_little_brat wrote:

Good I am glad to hear that. do your friend your age plan to? I know I was the only one of my friends when 18 to vote.
And as a young person why do you think people do not vote at your age? Is is because they think it is boring or just dont understand?

I think there's a lot of nonchalance where politics is concerned for people my age. I know a lot of people who want the voting age to be moved up because they don't feel old enough or knowledgeable on the subject. I actually find that pretty irritating - seeing as it's not difficult to read a party manifesto, speak to a local candidate, or generally become interested in the subject that governs the majority of our lives.
Only a few of my friends who were eligible to vote at the last election did so. A reason I heard for the lack of voting was the fact that most of my friends couldn't see a clear divide in the different parties. The politics and ideals have become so similar and obscure that people practice traditional class voting instead. E.g. 'My family is working-class, I'll vote for the party generically associated to me'.

What's more is - I know that some people my age (one of my best friends, in particular) have the 'what difference will it make?' idea planted firmly in their minds. It's really quite frustrating if you attempt to persuade them otherwise by saying that their vote could dramatically change the way they live their lives over the next four years or longer.

But, to answer your second question - nonchalance plays the greatest role in the reason people my age don't vote.

also picking up on the party divide thing, there are more than three partys, if people voted for independants and periferal partys they may not get in but it would shake up the big three. At council level this strategy is even more relevant.

Sam_Garland wrote:

Ok, to bring it back on topic -

Angus wrote:

The government had a responsibility to serve but as long as there are no bodies to look over the gov in a way that would stop all this happening, we are stuck.

What do others think? Are the government in the right, or should they accept responsibility and make the appropriate changes?
Was it 'right' to jail Josephine Rooney for protesting because of poor living conditions? Or should everyone pay council tax, regardless of circumstance and other factors?

In this situation the pensioner could afford to pay the tax, she made that quite clear BUT she chose not to because she believed the money was not being spent well.

I think she has every right to protest in this way but she should also be liable to be jailed. The system might need changing but it has to be done through the ballot box.

Mauri wrote:

I think she has every right to protest in this way but she should also be liable to be jailed. The system might need changing but it has to be done through the ballot box.

I understand what you mean, but this sort of protest is immediate, isn't it? I mean, how long would it take to make changes by ballot? This sort of publicity brings poor living conditions and the ineffectiveness of council tax into the public eye - and, hopefully, provokes a response from both the people and the government.
As Angus said previously, the pensioner was jailed AND won. She got exactly what she desired - look at the response from the public that was created. And now, the government is under pressure to make changes for the better.

steerpyke wrote:

also picking up on the party divide thing, there are more than three partys, if people voted for independants and periferal partys they may not get in but it would shake up the big three. At council level this strategy is even more relevant.

I agree and one year I did just that. I voted for a party which is very hated by the press and the public ( not one of the big 3/4) just because they stood for something that at that time with all the terrorists etc, I agreed with.

I dont agree with anything else that this party stands for but I was obviously not the only one as they gained a lot of support that year. This was about 3/4 years ago though.

Sam, I can see where your mates are coming from. I had to do a lot more then read the leaflets that come through your door to decide who I would vote for. They all seem to say the same things!!

Also I have never voted for who my family do. I think they all vote for the wrong reasons.

It is interesting for me because I moved from a rich area (Bath) to a not so rich area (kettering) and the voting objectives are very different.

spoilt_little_brat wrote:

Sam, I can see where your mates are coming from. I had to do a lot more then read the leaflets that come through your door to decide who I would vote for. They all seem to say the same things!!

Yeah, I think that's why a lot of them can't really be bothered to vote. It does take a lot of effort to make a decision on who to vote for, or find a clinching distinction between the parties...

Sam_Garland wrote:

spoilt_little_brat wrote:

Sam, I can see where your mates are coming from. I had to do a lot more then read the leaflets that come through your door to decide who I would vote for. They all seem to say the same things!!

Yeah, I think that's why a lot of them can't really be bothered to vote. It does take a lot of effort to make a decision on who to vote for, or find a clinching distinction between the parties...

reading three or four pamphlets at election time, reading a decent newspaper and watching the odd political show is not really a big effort. Thats all it takes to stay informed with the general policies of the parties. If the amount of time people spent watching, reading about and talking about Big Brother for example was spent following the politics of this country we would be the most switched on nation in the world. HUMP...rant over....stamping of feet.....and relax.

steerpyke wrote:

Sam_Garland wrote:

spoilt_little_brat wrote:

Sam, I can see where your mates are coming from. I had to do a lot more then read the leaflets that come through your door to decide who I would vote for. They all seem to say the same things!!

Yeah, I think that's why a lot of them can't really be bothered to vote. It does take a lot of effort to make a decision on who to vote for, or find a clinching distinction between the parties...

reading three or four pamphlets at election time, reading a decent newspaper and watching the odd political show is not really a big effort. Thats all it takes to stay informed with the general policies of the parties. If the amount of time people spent watching, reading about and talking about Big Brother for example was spent following the politics of this country we would be the most switched on nation in the world. HUMP...rant over....stamping of feet.....and relax.

No I agree, I care that is why I buy a paper every day/ watch the news/ check on teletext or the net. I am just putting myself in their shoes where, as you said big brother is the highlight of their conversation, and they couldnt give a dam about politics.

I dont know how you would make teenagers and adults for that matter, more interested.

steerpyke wrote:

reading three or four pamphlets at election time, reading a decent newspaper and watching the odd political show is not really a big effort

No, it's not a big effort. It's barely an effort at all - but as I said previously, the biggest reason for the lack of 18 year olds out there voting is because the majority of them just don't care that much. Like I said in an earlier post, teenagers tend to think 'well, what difference will it make anyway?'.
That is frustrating though! Think how many more people would vote if that sort of thinking could be abolished!

I think this country has sunk to an all time low when it jails a pensioner for not paying council tax but releases a murderer after he has only served half his sentence. This woman was trying to make a difference but this Orwellian mob(I voted for them) have homes: they don't pay council tax:they don't live in the real world. I can understand the apathy of the young but we have to live in a political world. Sticking our heads in the sand is the way to lose all our hard earned freedoms.

Quite happy to see her go to jail for non payment after all the local council (it is a local issue not a central governemnt one despite most of this thread suggesting otherwise) have a statutory duty to collect council tax off all those eligible to pay. They are elected officials at the h
ead of the council so if they are not doing their job use your vote or stand against them, single issue candidates can do well locally as was shown in Kidderminster when a candidate stood against hospital closures and more recently in the Welsh bi-election.

The fact that she is an old lady has nothing to do with it, if you found out that for her whole life she had lived off benefits and campaigned to have all non whites kicked out of the country then people would take a very different attitude to it.

I'm not saying she has in fact she seems to have lived a life aimed at helping the homeless it is just that the spin on a story like this often masks peples perception of the issue.

I believe she should have been jailed.

We all have a responsibility to pay council tax, no matter how good or bad the area we live in. (and lets face it, who can afford it, that's not always a valid excuse either)

The issues about the area may need addressing, but how the government can change the behaviour of individuals is a difficult one.

This is in reply to atticusuk last post

That sounds like a bureaucratic answer straight from the Alister Campbell book of spin.The fact is, an old lady was sent to jail for trying to get her town cleaned up and drug taking and prostitution removed from the streets. She has been helping the homeless and trying hard to make her town a better place.The Council hasn't done it's job, so they shouldn't be paid.

My postman keeps putting letters to 391 into my flat when in fact I am at 393. The royal mail isnt doing their job properly, I'm not putting stamps on letters anymore in protest.

Yup, they wont get delivered and the recipients will get sick of having to go down to the post office to pay for it (ya see? someone else ALWAYS ends up paying for it)

Ok, so maybe a flippant example but the same principle in my head.

silver40 wrote:

This is in reply to atticusuk last post

That sounds like a bureaucratic answer straight from the Alister Campbell book of spin.The fact is, an old lady was sent to jail for trying to get her town cleaned up and drug taking and prostitution removed from the streets. She has been helping the homeless and trying hard to make her town a better place.The Council hasn't done it's job, so they shouldn't be paid.

No an old lady was sent to jail for refusing to pay her council tax as part of a publicity stunt. The council get paid no matter as you can bet any shortfall in the budget through her non payment will not see a reduction in council workers salary rather less funds going to the very services that her community needs. By extension your argument is merely an excuse for anyone to decide not to pay any tax as long as they are old as long as they can seek to take the moral high ground.

I think hanging would have been suitable punishment

Old people have no respect any more.

She should go to jail for refusing to pay, it is the people who are unable to pay who should be getting leeway not those affter makin a cheap political point to get a slot on GMTV.

Ok Ok I agree in principle and forget she's old. Also it's crowded on the moral high ground.
So you live in a place where they can pick up 600 needles in an hour. There are muggings and prostitution to pay for drugs. Your life is intolerable.The Police and the Council do nothing apart from occasionally picking up needles and counting them. You appeal to the Council they still do nothing.What can you do? Wait until the next election. Take action. Forget about it. Form a posse. Answers on a postage stamp.

BTW How do you do that thingy where you put the previous post in with your answer in a white box?

Have to press 'quote' in the top right corner...

There's two different issues here, isn't there?

* I think the old granny/grandad/whoeveritwas should have been prosecuted for non-payment of poll tax or whatever it is they call it now that whacks £150 a month from my account.

* I don't think prison is an appropriate punishment for society to be doling out for non-payment of poll tax.

* I think our prisons are overcrowded at great expense to the tax payer and people are generally being locked up for inappropriate (ie non violent) offences.

* I say big up to the granny for refusing to pay and being prepared to risk the punishment to make her point and get it publicised.

* I don't know what I think about pensioners and poll tax generally - I do think there should be rebates for those living on state pensions alone or small private pensions, but I'm not so sure my parents, whose pensions amount to almost as much as Michael and I earn deserve a rebate, but then on the other hand, I'm not in favour of yet more means testing.

* Steerpyke's right.

Jill Murphy wrote:

* Steerpyke's right.

yeah

P.S. Smash the System

Jill Murphy wrote:

There's two different issues here, isn't there?

* I think the old granny/grandad/whoeveritwas should have been prosecuted for non-payment of poll tax or whatever it is they call it now that whacks £150 a month from my account.

* I don't think prison is an appropriate punishment for society to be doling out for non-payment of poll tax.

* I think our prisons are overcrowded at great expense to the tax payer and people are generally being locked up for inappropriate (ie non violent) offences.

* I say big up to the granny for refusing to pay and being prepared to risk the punishment to make her point and get it publicised.

* I don't know what I think about pensioners and poll tax generally - I do think there should be rebates for those living on state pensions alone or small private pensions, but I'm not so sure my parents, whose pensions amount to almost as much as Michael and I earn deserve a rebate, but then on the other hand, I'm not in favour of yet more means testing.

* Steerpyke's right.

I agree on all points which is rather boring I know. I object to the enormous rises that have taken place since the present Government took over although I realise we need to pay for services. It would be nice if we could see some improvement in services for our money.

I can't believe a Labour Government would bring in means testing. On the other hand they are only pretending to be labour.

BTW Thanks to Sam_Garland for the quote advice

silver40 wrote:

BTW Thanks to Sam_Garland for the quote advice

Not a problem, happy to help!

I'm quite surprised that the votes above show the majority of people don't believe the government should accept responsibility for the poor living conditions. When I posted the topic, I assumed the majority of people would pick the middle option - that the pensioner should be jailed AND the government should accept responsibility, then show the public how they were going to make the appropriate changes.
Still, the votes for all three options are very close.