Class society

koshkha wrote:

Ziggy! wrote:

I dont think the upper class come into the equation. Most of their wealth is heridatory, and so not earnt, education perfunctory and irrelevant. A thick posh kid can go to the best university through nepotism but a smart poor kid cant...

Rubbish! I was a smart poor kid and I got into the best universities through the state school system on full grants without knowing anyone.

And these days it's even easier to do with the universities having quotas to take the poorer kids. The money is still a problem and I'd be in favour of charging higher fees to kids from public schools (whose parents think it's a laugh that they paid 20k a year to the schools and are getting away with a tiny fraction of that for uni fees).

I agree with Koshka here...we were VERY poor kids...lil sis has a degree and is now CFO of a bloody big international company and even lil ole me has an MBA amongst other qualifications...something not many managers in this country ever achieve.


If a poor kid WANTS to, they can...it is a lot easier now in a lot of ways compared to 20 years ago..(ok the fees are there but as Mauri says, why should the tax payers who are NOT benefiting from this education pay for others. And frankly, our fees are still very good value for money (unless you are doing some mickey mouse degree which won't lead to a decent job). and of course a lot of expense is accommodation - so if you want a degree and keep costs down, then there is the option of staying home...and getting a PT job - lots do!

helencbradshaw wrote:

ok the fees are there but as Mauri says, why should the tax payers who are NOT benefiting from this education pay for others.

I disagree. The ordinary tax payer WILL benefit from people getting their degree's in a number of ways. The economy grows as degree educated people climb the ladder and bring money into the country, and then there are all the doctors, nurses, dentists, lawyers etc that the county as a whole need.

Yes, everyone benefits in a round a bout way.

drewboy wrote:

helencbradshaw wrote:

ok the fees are there but as Mauri says, why should the tax payers who are NOT benefiting from this education pay for others.

I disagree. The ordinary tax payer WILL benefit from people getting their degree's in a number of ways. The economy grows as degree educated people climb the ladder and bring money into the country, and then there are all the doctors, nurses, dentists, lawyers etc that the county as a whole need.

Yes, everyone benefits in a round a bout way.

well I agree with your disagreement!!

the issue of fees is of course a complex one...and the issue of upskilling our country to meet the demands of the knowledge age IS one I fully understand...and so yes I do know that the fees thing is not as simple as I stated earlier.

I do think though..that in making my earlier point...that there is no automatic excuse for kids from poor backgrounds not be successful in education and their career - should they choose to do so and have determination to do so.

drewboy wrote:

helencbradshaw wrote:

ok the fees are there but as Mauri says, why should the tax payers who are NOT benefiting from this education pay for others.

I disagree. The ordinary tax payer WILL benefit from people getting their degree's in a number of ways. The economy grows as degree educated people climb the ladder and bring money into the country, and then there are all the doctors, nurses, dentists, lawyers etc that the county as a whole need.

Yes, everyone benefits in a round a bout way.

In agreement with Drewboy on this one; education benefits society as a whole and not just the student. Do we want an un-educated society? We all benefit from peole who have a university education all the time.

I think that the tax payer should foot the bill; I am quite old-fashioned on that one. I'd like to see grants means-tested but all fees paid. I feel really uncomfortable about the idea of a graduate tax - do we really want to live in a society where learning is taxed like some kind of luxury?

helencbradshaw wrote:

drewboy wrote:

helencbradshaw wrote:

ok the fees are there but as Mauri says, why should the tax payers who are NOT benefiting from this education pay for others.

I disagree. The ordinary tax payer WILL benefit from people getting their degree's in a number of ways. The economy grows as degree educated people climb the ladder and bring money into the country, and then there are all the doctors, nurses, dentists, lawyers etc that the county as a whole need.

Yes, everyone benefits in a round a bout way.

well I agree with your disagreement!!

the issue of fees is of course a complex one...and the issue of upskilling our country to meet the demands of the knowledge age IS one I fully understand...and so yes I do know that the fees thing is not as simple as I stated earlier.

I do think though..that in making my earlier point...that there is no automatic excuse for kids from poor backgrounds not be successful in education and their career - should they choose to do so and have determination to do so.

Bringing this back round to the class debate, I do think it is easier for children from lower income WORKING CLASS families to go to university but there are still problems. For example, I wonder whether I would have still gone to university if I'd had to pay fees and take out loans. My parents while not wealthy, were not particularly well off and I was brought up with the idea that you avoid debt and live according to your means. I still don't use a credit card and am a frantic saver. I pay cash for almost everything and dont buy something unless I have the money already there. I would have been terrified of the idea of having to take out loans to fund me through university. MAny working class people still have this attitude to money.

Furthermore. what of the people who aren't even considered working class these days. That section of society that were poorly educated - or not at all - who don't encourage their children to make the most of the opportunities available. We struggle to even get bank accounts opened for the young people who come to our project so imagine what it would be like for a young person with no family suppport or even interest to set themselves up financially to study. It's already hard enough to drag your self out of this underclass without having more barriers to education.

All I know is that I have a god awful class to teach period 6 on a Wednesday. Year 10 hooligans no matter what social class they come from.

While I think it is easier for working class kids to get a good education these days the calss bias still exists in that some upper class kids are getting into top universities and jobs that would not be open to them unless they had connections and the right sort of background...

Mauri wrote:

While I think it is easier for working class kids to get a good education these days the calss bias still exists in that some upper class kids are getting into top universities and jobs that would not be open to them unless they had connections and the right sort of background...

Yes, indeed. And I think some of the traditions followed at some of the Oxbridge colleges do put people off from applying - the formal dinners, etc.

I don't know if anyone else did or has any experience of this, but my experience of private school's is that the kids were just as bad as any kid from a normal state school if not worse (and yes I know that is a HUGE generalization)!!

In my experience the kids were difficult and had too much knowledge of their own self importance. We got away with all sorts because the teachers were too scared to *Bad word* off the parents.

There was also a bad case of the pupils picking on children who they thought should not be there or were from another class. This is an attitude I can only guess you would get from your parents.

This was from when I was at private school years ago, and now my sister goes to private school and nothing has changed.

fizzywizzy wrote:

helencbradshaw wrote:

drewboy wrote:

helencbradshaw wrote:

ok the fees are there but as Mauri says, why should the tax payers who are NOT benefiting from this education pay for others.

I disagree. The ordinary tax payer WILL benefit from people getting their degree's in a number of ways. The economy grows as degree educated people climb the ladder and bring money into the country, and then there are all the doctors, nurses, dentists, lawyers etc that the county as a whole need.

Yes, everyone benefits in a round a bout way.

well I agree with your disagreement!!

the issue of fees is of course a complex one...and the issue of upskilling our country to meet the demands of the knowledge age IS one I fully understand...and so yes I do know that the fees thing is not as simple as I stated earlier.

I do think though..that in making my earlier point...that there is no automatic excuse for kids from poor backgrounds not be successful in education and their career - should they choose to do so and have determination to do so.

Bringing this back round to the class debate, I do think it is easier for children from lower income WORKING CLASS families to go to university but there are still problems. For example, I wonder whether I would have still gone to university if I'd had to pay fees and take out loans. My parents while not wealthy, were not particularly well off and I was brought up with the idea that you avoid debt and live according to your means. I still don't use a credit card and am a frantic saver. I pay cash for almost everything and dont buy something unless I have the money already there. I would have been terrified of the idea of having to take out loans to fund me through university. MAny working class people still have this attitude to money.

I think where there is a will there is a way...

we were poorer than the poor people. I don't have debt now (other than mortgage) in fact I had actually paid my mortgage off by about 32/33 and don't have cards now other than for convenience abroad i.e. AMEX. and have no credit for years, not even a car loan.

SO I DO have that attitude to money......and I have an education...and I completely self funded that education. And that is important...as I don't owe it to anyone.

I'm not saying they can't, just that I think there are lots who are out off by the idea of having to take out loans to fund it.

I think the class system is so rigid in the UK because both sides want it.

I don't think it is something that the lower classes want.

Although I can see that it can make the higher classes feel more important and grand.

Ziggy! wrote:

I think the class system is so rigid in the UK because both sides want it.

Both sides of what?

In my experience true working class people like to be with likewise, drinking beer and eating chips etc. Education and career progression is intimidating to them, why not just be normal and enjoy yourself.. The Middle class (them) define themselves by deliberately not doing those things. They see education is progression. They see diet as the discipline.They see distancing thier children from state systems as the way to secure that status. Status is the word the Middle class most enjoy.

But the class system (even the out of date one you are quoting) goes much further than a classification of two.

Yes..I dont understand these last few posts..

most class stuff is most useful to people who do marketing..i.e. ABC1 - higher disposable income etc..otherwise most of us probably dont give a damn.
?
or am I missing the point?

Of course the Upper Class...is not something most of us can reach if we were not born into it already..but as for working class and middle class, this is not a big deal if classified by head of household occupation and education etc...(although a few people who are technically "middle class" might consider themselves to be "working class" because their background is "working class" (mine included)

We are seeing the class system in action right here on this board.lol! The denial of it is lesson number one.

Don't know I am denying it...our marketing lives by it..

Ziggy! wrote:

We are seeing the class system in action right here on this board.lol! The denial of it is lesson number one.

I really don't follow that one....

Exactly.

Ziggy! wrote:

In my experience true working class people like to be with likewise, drinking beer and eating chips etc. Education and career progression is intimidating to them, why not just be normal and enjoy yourself.. The Middle class (them) define themselves by deliberately not doing those things. They see education is progression. They see diet as the discipline.They see distancing thier children from state systems as the way to secure that status. Status is the word the Middle class most enjoy.

You're talking *Bad word*! The generalisations you make are staggering...so all working class people are beer swilling, chip eating (shall we say fat), fag smoking, uneducated thickkos... Of course if you do find one or two that do have a university degree then they are by definition 'Middle class' so your assertion is a self fulfilling one...

The Middle Class are these do-goodie, vegetarian, health freaks who sole goal in life is to make sure they can afford to send their little Jack or Emily to private school...

How very neat your view of the world is...

If this is your experience than you've lived a very odd existence...

So what are you working class? Middle class? Upper class? or don't the labels apply in your case?

Mauri wrote:

[So what are you working class? Middle class? Upper class? or don't the labels apply in your case?