St Georges day holiday

Utter drivel.

The huge majority of English people who want this day just want to celebrate being English not concentrate on who can celebrate and who can't depending on how English you are. The implication that hourdes of white anglo saxons will use the day to target 'lesser English folk' is utterly preposterous.

WormThatTurned wrote:

http://www.bombardier.co.uk/bombardier/promotions/petition

I've posted a handy link for you fizzy

Looks like a way for Bombardier to sell more beer .....

WormThatTurned wrote:

The implication that hourdes of white anglo saxons will use the day to target 'lesser English folk' is utterly preposterous.

Agree completely. It's a ridiculous idea, and a strange outlook on how some see the British population. It's almost as if they're waiting for people to start a mob and go around lynching immigrants.

Sam_Garland wrote:

WormThatTurned wrote:

The implication that hourdes of white anglo saxons will use the day to target 'lesser English folk' is utterly preposterous.

Agree completely. It's a ridiculous idea, and a strange outlook on how some see the British population. It's almost as if they're waiting for people to start a mob and go around lynching immigrants.

I'm not so sure its as rediculous as you both think....

drewboy wrote:

Sam_Garland wrote:

WormThatTurned wrote:

The implication that hourdes of white anglo saxons will use the day to target 'lesser English folk' is utterly preposterous.

Agree completely. It's a ridiculous idea, and a strange outlook on how some see the British population. It's almost as if they're waiting for people to start a mob and go around lynching immigrants.

I'm not so sure its as rediculous as you both think....

Me neither.

Ruth Kellys intentions are more about bringing the race debate onto Gordon Browns agenda. It is the big working class issue of the decade. Thats votes in politcal language. I dont think there will ever be more than political chat over having the day.
I think life is predictable and the day would be seen as green light for blue collar nationalism.

Ziggy, I didn't understand a lot of that. Do you mean that Ruth Kelly is only campaigning for a 'Britain day' to bring up race as a topic? And then, if established, the day will be viewed only as a day for people to target those who aren't 'English'?

Yup!

Not as daft as it sounds....keep a certain section of the population happy by making it look like you are listening to their views. After all you do hear a lot of people complaining about immigrants getting this, that and the other and "people born here" losing out. Maybe ths is the government's way of saying that they're not forgotten?

fizzywizzy wrote:

WormThatTurned wrote:

http://www.bombardier.co.uk/bombardier/promotions/petition

I've posted a handy link for you fizzy

Looks like a way for Bombardier to sell more beer .....

I take it your not going to sign up then

WormThatTurned wrote:

fizzywizzy wrote:

WormThatTurned wrote:

http://www.bombardier.co.uk/bombardier/promotions/petition

I've posted a handy link for you fizzy

Looks like a way for Bombardier to sell more beer .....

I take it your not going to sign up then

Not likely, my favourite beer is Russian

Mines Polish - Lech - U like ?

WormThatTurned wrote:

Mines Polish - Lech - U like ?

Lech isn't bad but Baltika is my tipple

Ziggy! wrote:

Ruth Kellys intentions are more about bringing the race debate onto Gordon Browns agenda. It is the big working class issue of the decade. Thats votes in politcal language. I dont think there will ever be more than political chat over having the day.
I think life is predictable and the day would be seen as green light for blue collar nationalism.

Another go at the 'working' class I see...

So it's the working class that are racist and xenophobic... Of course the great upper class institutions and professions are awash with racial liberalism and bonhomie to immigrants.

The working classes are not per se racist in fact the socialist movement with its roots in the working classes has always emphasised equality and fairness amongst all people. I'm not saying there aren't racist among the Working classes as there are in any other groups in society BUT why do you pick them out as being an important part of the problem...

And BTW since you like to label people in this way what social class do you consider yourself? Or are you above such categorisations?

I would consider myself upper working class, my parents lower middle. Im rounded and well travelled and can base my opinions on social class from meeting lots of peope. I would like to be middle class and proffesional to get away from some of the peope I have worked with in various jobs. Im more confortably around middle class people. My feeling is racism is intrinisic in all social classes and races but openly projected in the white working classes as method of unifaction-us V them.Who ever them are.. The middle classes are far more subtle in general converastion, but still generally as bigoted as everyone else. Im sure you have tut tutted ata dinner party at some of the things you friends haves aid on the subject. I judge people on their results not skin color.

I think it is opinions like that which is why we still have such a strong class system.

Ziggy! wrote:

I would consider myself upper working class, my parents lower middle. Im rounded and well travelled and can base my opinions on social class from meeting lots of peope. I would like to be middle class and proffesional to get away from some of the peope I have worked with in various jobs. Im more confortably around middle class people. My feeling is racism is intrinisic in all social classes and races but openly projected in the white working classes as method of unifaction-us V them.Who ever them are.. The middle classes are far more subtle in general converastion, but still generally as bigoted as everyone else. Im sure you have tut tutted ata dinner party at some of the things you friends haves aid on the subject. I judge people on their results not skin color.

So you are an exception to your own rule that working class people are racists.

I agree with what 'spoilt_little_brat' said from your answer you sound like you're part of the problem we have in this country over class attitutes...

If any of my friends, working class or middle class (I don't have any I would class as Upper class!) were to say anything overtly racist I wouldn't 'tut tut' but challenge them about it. To my knowledge none of my friends are racist.

What was I saying last week - 'some people are obsessed with class' - heres a case in point !!

I am not getting the "class" argument at all..

while I get that people might feel there is the old blue blood thing with upper class, class to me has been the marketing ABC1/Acorn "class"ification...and apart from arguing the obvious flaws in any classification table (which we could argue about all day, but the fact is no model can cover all possibilities) ....I am a little confused as to the link between this and racism and being pro st george's day etc..

And I havent read a single tabloid on the story, either pro or against.


http://www.businessballs.com/demographicsclassifications.htm

helencbradshaw wrote:

I am not getting the "class" argument at all..

while I get that people might feel there is the old blue blood thing with upper class, class to me has been the marketing ABC1/Acorn "class"ification...and apart from arguing the obvious flaws in any classification table (which we could argue about all day, but the fact is no model can cover all possibilities) ....I am a little confused as to the link between this and racism and being pro st george's day etc..

And I havent read a single tabloid on the story, either pro or against.


http://www.businessballs.com/demographicsclassifications.htm

The link betwen racism and class seems to be largely in Phil's mind. He seems to think that all working class people (except him) are xenophobic, racist, beer swilling, chip eating, oiks that aren't educated and don't want to be educated.

I think the point that was being made by some before we went off at a tangent is that 'Englishness' is more difficult to define than Britishness at least if you want to make it inclusive since it is an idea that has been associated with racial sterotypes and in the past has been a focus for the far right.

While I think it is possible to 'celebrate' Britishness being inclusive of all the diffenrent ethinic groups that now make up Britain this is more difficult with Englishness since many of those ethnic groups don't associate themselves (and aren't by many others) with Englishness in the same way that they see themselves as British.

The class thing is a red herring really in this discussion...

I sometimes wonder what age you guys live in. Im sure you have never been in a greasy spoon before.

Ziggy! wrote:

I sometimes wonder what age you guys live in. Im sure you have never been in a greasy spoon before.

There you go again Phil you really can't help yourself. All I'm saying is that is is a massive and unfair generalisation to say that all working class people have racist attitudes (racism is not the preserve of the working classes anyway) and you automatically accuse me of being a 'politically correct' and I assume middle class.

In my experience (and I've been in a few greasy spoons as well as a few posher eateries too), stupid, ignorant people tend to have racist attitudes- stupidity and ignorance are not the preserve of the working class either...nor are they qualities that are incompatable with a high level of education! Some of the most ignorant and stupid people I have known have been very well educated and certainly not working class.

Ziggy! wrote:

I sometimes wonder what age you guys live in. Im sure you have never been in a greasy spoon before.

Peter's on Westmoreland Rd, Newcastle - highly recommended for amusement. Less so for food - the cheeky man slices sausages in half kenghtways and buries them in baked beans to make them look like whole ones!

Getting back on thread

I believe the vast majority of people consider themselves either English, Welsh, Irish or Scottish before British thats why I'd prefer a St Georges day over a 'Britain day'.

WormThatTurned wrote:

Getting back on thread

I believe the vast majority of people consider themselves either English, Welsh, Irish or Scottish before British thats why I'd prefer a St Georges day over a 'Britain day'.

Not I! I consider myself

1. European (waits for the jeers - sorry but I do)
2. British
3. English

I am British before I am English because although I was born in England I have Scottish ancestry on both sides only two generations back and I feel that that Scottish background is part of what i am.