St Georges day holiday

Well I agree the English identity is poor to say the least from our neighbours point of view. But it's misguided from where I stand.

Most English people are tolerant/ decent/ law abiding/ hard working folk.

WormThatTurned wrote:

Well I agree the English identity is poor to say the least from our neighbours point of view. But it's misguided from where I stand.

Most English people are tolerant/ decent/ law abiding/ hard working folk.

I wouldn't say misguided, its slightly outdated (for the most part) but that is a different thing.

the English definitely have some ground to make up - for their crimes towards Ireland and even Australia as recently as 80 years ago.

I would support a St George's day celebration providing all countries in the UK were also recognising their national days (Wales and Scotland do not do a whole heap at the moment either - they certainly don't get the day off as a national holiday like US/Australia etc). Otherwise it needs to be a UK day.

Having lived outside of England for a long time, I have had my share of "English" hatred, quite a bit of which has driven me to tears..and yet I understand the context completely (I have visited more of Britain in general than almost anyone I know and have a keen interest in the history) but unfortunately two wrongs don't make a right either. I think a lot of the rest of the world mistakes Britain and England more so than most English (although there is a minority of English that are dumb enough and/or arrogant enough - but even the English don't like them!!)

I do believe however, that this isn't because they are English, as much as they are just plain ignorant and those types will exist in any country. If we are to go stereotypes I think a lot of the rest of the west would consider Brits a bit stuffy, and/or reserved

From an economic standpoint - I don't think industry would stand an extra bank holiday as that has significant cost, and it would be a case of trading one for another - I imagine.

However, whatever this proposed celebration might be - I would expect it to be a fair representation of English life - which is not all cricket and tea on the lawn.

I agree though with the comments that we (non-irish...as it were - although my folks (and big sis) are Irish - so I am non Irish in an Irish kind of way....born on the boat on the way over...almost!) see St Pats as an excuse for beer - and it is lucrative from a hospitality point of view..(as is Irish themed nights/pubs the world over). I know this as I milk it!

I actually think that it is the Welsh/scottish Parliaments that have driven the English to think about themselves though...(yep arrogant in itself) but had those parliaments been formed (and Braveheart never screened!) I doubt we would ever have seen a St George's Cross in England. In that way, I do think that most English do think British first.

(As an aside, I remember at the common wealth games in 1998 (somewhere in asia, forget where), for the first few days the English flag was the Union Jack...whereas the other flags were correct - talk about a lack of English Identity there..! So the media do not always assume Britain is England - this actually was the other way)

WormThatTurned wrote:

Well I agree the English identity is poor to say the least from our neighbours point of view. But it's misguided from where I stand.

Most English people are tolerant/ decent/ law abiding/ hard working folk.

I broadly agree with what Helen said above...

Wormy I'd like to hear from you as to what you think being 'English' means and how that differs from being British.

What would you celebrate on St George's day...?

Be hoonest, why else would a white working class male want to wave a flag around, other than to support his footy team...
Todays St Goerges day is about right wing patriotism and anti immigration.

Like I said earlier a lot of English are confused as to their identity - English or British. I have no such problem - I am immensely comfortable and proud to be an Englishmen. We are constantly being told we are British not English no doubt because of pressures from Europe who don't recognise England as a country. Thesedays showing nationalism has become politically incorrect, even considered racist by some commentators.

The English have so much to be proud of - their values, their tolerance, their traditions, their heritage, their sense of fair play, their history and their people to name but a few. Our history has been littered with atrocities (slavery/ colonization etc), I accept this but bizarrely we are held accountable for our ancestors sins like no other country is. We respect the traditions and beliefs of other nationalities who come to live here but we must not lose sight of our own. We should be allowed to uphold them without being called racist or xenophobic.

I'd like to think St Georges Day could evolve up and down the land as a mass community event - festivals/ galas/ street parties/ floats etc etc and i'd like to think all English citizens would be involved regardless of age, race or culture. Everyone could bring something to the table. And personally Mauri I'd like to spend St Georges Day participating and celebrating.

Still a very hazy concept...

I'm still not sure what we mean by 'English'?

We could celebrate English attributes tolerance, traditions sense of fair play...are these exclusively English? Have the Scots or Welsh or other nations not got claims to these attributes? Would associating these things to 'Englishness' be implying that others don't have these or at least not such a good a claim on these attributes.

The problem of identity is a real one since how do you classify yourself as English as opposed to British.

If you are born in England are you English even if you are from a first generation ethnic backgroud?

If you were born abroad but live here now and have British Citizenship are you English.

If you are second generation West Indian or Pakistani are you now English?

If not how many generations back to you need to go? Is Kevin Pietersen more English than Monty Panesar?

Are the Royal family English? Is Prince Charles English or second generation Greek and Fourth generation Genman?

A clear idea of 'Englishness' seems to only exist in the minds of some nationalists that like to remember a past through St George coloured spectacles.

Maybe we could celebrate English food...Balti, Tikka Massala at least these as opposed to Fish and Chips or Roast Beef were created by English born people in England...

BUT we do have Shakespeare and he was born on St George's day!

Isnt being English what makes everyone else in the world want to come here and admire us. Thats what makes me English...not bu
ying flag from Smiths. Thats nothing to do with anything and about making money. Lets face it, SGD is a commercial ruse, or the expansion of the days significance is..

Ziggy! wrote:

Be hoonest, why else would a white working class male want to wave a flag around, other than to support his footy team...
Todays St Goerges day is about right wing patriotism and anti immigration.

Well I disagree with that..

I am ok with St George's day, as a formal celebration (providing all other countries were celebrating their national day too,otherwise it becomes a UK day..)

however I am pro immigration and haven't a clue what right wing patriotism is to be honest, but I don't think it describes me!

I never claimed rights to the attributes I mentioned. Were all human beings - citizens of differing countries can display the same qualities but that doesn't mean you shouldn't celebrate it.

You seem to be implying my version of being English is solely a white christian affair. Our country is incredibly diverse, made up of citizens of varying origin and religions. Scotland, Wales and Ireland are too but England is a lot larger so the diversity is more defined. I'm proud of our nations diversity and unity. We are one of the most multicultural countries on earth which proves just how tolerant England has been over the centuries.

Englishness to me is pride. Proud of the things I've already mentioned and a thousand other things I could list. Proud to be part of a nation that has achieved so much and has so much going for it. Proud to be English first, British second and European third. The Royal family are proud too as they have a St Georges flag flying from Buckingham Palace.

I for one think this country of ours is worth a celebration.

The real reason people are against this day is because they are afraid it will be hijacked by the national front.

WormThatTurned wrote:

The Royal family are proud too as they have a St Georges flag flying from Buckingham Palace.

Do they? I bloody hope that they have the other three flags as well then as they are the BRITISH Monarchy.

drewboy wrote:

WormThatTurned wrote:

The Royal family are proud too as they have a St Georges flag flying from Buckingham Palace.

Do they? I bloody hope that they have the other three flags as well then as they are the BRITISH Monarchy.

Yup..

They fly the Union Jack (when required to flag fly - not the St George's cross...) - used to be the Standard only and only when in residence but most of us will remember that uproar from 1997.

Lets just not push the right wing agenda the flag waving stands for. Thats all im sayin.

Can you explain???

I don't understand your comment

Ziggy! wrote:

Be hoonest, why else would a white working class male want to wave a flag around, other than to support his footy team...
Todays St Goerges day is about right wing patriotism and anti immigration.

Absolute ballocks

Not you, them, the white working class. The people I know who take the day off for St Georges Day get pi**ed and talk about white Britiain,not this wonderful multicultural society. I think immigration and asylum is why the day has become more releveant to some people...

I'm infavour of anything that brings an extra Bank Holiday but would prefer it to be about being British rather than solely focused on St George, providing it is not a day in an existing school holiday otherwise I would not benefit.

For extra bank holidays I'd become a catholic - the Catholic countries do so much better than us out of bank holidays and jollies.

(I hope that wasn't offensive)

Ziggy! wrote:

Not you, them, the white working class. The people I know who take the day off for St Georges Day get pi**ed and talk about white Britiain,not this wonderful multicultural society. I think immigration and asylum is why the day has become more releveant to some people...

I don't think so at all.

I think devolution in Scotland and Wales has alerted the English to the fact England is a seperate nation with more awareness of our national identities.

Its like Secretaries Day in America!

Smart marketing men and women (not the Olympic logo ones) have seen the anti immigration thing growing, those tatty flags of St Goerge still hanging under windows or flapping on cars, long after the international footy has finished, thinking...hello, lets link the two and sell em some more. The blue collar class have thought, ello, someones listening, look at all these flags in the shops, we will buy more, it must mean what we think it means. I juts dont see healthy patriotism.

My mum lives in America and works for the government and has a St George's flag on her desk , her American work mates don't mind and think it's nice she want's to remember her English roots.

Ziggy! wrote:

Not you, them, the white working class. The people I know who take the day off for St Georges Day get pi**ed and talk about white Britiain,not this wonderful multicultural society. I think immigration and asylum is why the day has become more releveant to some people...

I think this thread has degenerated beyond belief.

"the people I know who take the day off for St Georges Day..."

please explain -

You are making HUGE assumptions about linking St George's Day with "white Britain" etc....well for the record I have worked on 4 continents...and I am supporting a St George's Day as a celebration PROVIDING all other UK nations have their national celebration too.

I have NEVER discussed WHITE Britain with anyone, in fact I am pretty intolerant of people who even think such thoughts and The reason is...I haven't yet grasped the concept about how why the 6' square space in which we are all born has such an emotional response amongst nationalists and racists. In fact i just dont get it.



I find your conclusion that the day has become more relevant to people based on asylum and immigration to be inaccurate and inflammatory

Im not talking about you-im talking about most English people who celebrate St Georges Day in the UK. Its the way I see it on the ground. The idea that its bearded men 'clunking' silver tankards in village pubs talking about Sealed Knott stuff is the impression im getting here. ANyhow,SG was Eastern European and mythical.

I know you are not talking about ME...you don't know ME!

However.,...I am intrigued then...about "most English people" ...am I not English???? and whether I am English or not, or drinkg beer from a tankard or fine wine from a delicate glass - is that grounds for a generalisation of the attitudes of all 50+ million of us?

It is when its Phil...... (ooops....)