Up rating.

Some people will always complain, no matter what, and they will pick holes in everything. There's no way of pleasing them, so don't even try. They seem to operate on a different set of values than the "norm" i.e. everybody else. They tend to be unpleasant. I'm sure you know the type. They're the ones I referred to as "awkward customers".

Chuchy wrote:

Some people will always complain, no matter what, and they will pick holes in everything. There's no way of pleasing them, so don't even try. They seem to operate on a different set of values than the "norm" i.e. everybody else. They tend to be unpleasant. I'm sure you know the type. They're the ones I referred to as "awkward customers".

But thats the point I'm trying to make. It's not about 'complaining'. It's about saying 'I didn't get from that what I wanted'.

The moment people stop seeing it as complaints, the moment they get to enjoy the site for what it is there for.

drewboy wrote:

Chuchy wrote:

Some people will always complain, no matter what, and they will pick holes in everything. There's no way of pleasing them, so don't even try. They seem to operate on a different set of values than the "norm" i.e. everybody else. They tend to be unpleasant. I'm sure you know the type. They're the ones I referred to as "awkward customers".

But thats the point I'm trying to make. It's not about 'complaining'. It's about saying 'I didn't get from that what I wanted'.

The moment people stop seeing it as complaints, the moment they get to enjoy the site for what it is there for.

So you're saying that there's no such thing as an unjustified negative rate? If that's the case anybody could pick any holes in any review justifying an overall negative rate (SH/NH).

No, I am not. What I DO think, is that people jump to the conclusion that its unjustified because they can see the rest of the ratesthe review has received.

Are you trying to tell me that people do see the deluge of VH's and it doesn't have an impact on what they themselves rate?

Chuchy wrote:

So you're saying that there's no such thing as an unjustified negative rate? If that's the case anybody could pick any holes in any review justifying an overall negative rate (SH/NH).

No, but what's unjustified to you might not be unjustified to others. For example, as a consumer, I want my information delivered immediately and clearly. If a review cannot offer this to me, I leave the review and rate based on what I've gained from the review before giving up. Usually this happens on longer reviews and the information I get is not a lot.

You might consider that unjustified. I do not.

As for the over-rating, I'm not referring to VHs on SH reviews. I'm talking about people that want to rate a review as SH or H but won't (for any number of reasons) and instead leave a token VH and are on their merry way to the next review. I've no doubt that your reviews have quite a few. I know mine have loads. Statistically, reviews should have a wide spread of ratings from people with different requirements (not, as you keep saying "awkward customers") seeing as the review sites are made up of people with a wide range of backgrounds, needs, education etc. The fact that a review can get over 100 reads for a popular member and all of them are VH tells me that people are over-rating.

Your language tells me quite a bit. People who rate low vary from "the norm". By your own admission, people are pressured into rating the same way as the people that have rated before them or else they're not 'the same'. That's peer pressure rather than peer review.

Chuchy wrote:

Ciao's Favourite Member wrote:

Just because someone doesn't give you a VH or whatever, doesn't make them "awkward", they just have different requirements. I find it hard to believe that you see these "unjustified" ratings when it's fairly hard to prove deliberate malicious rating that's not NH. By the sounds of it (and from looking at your threads/posts here on FOIB), you're viewing every single non-VH rating with suspicion, possibly with anger. That's really not healthy.

Funnily enough, you don't seem too bothered about the over-rating that inevitably goes on.

I'm not talking about non-VH rates in general. I'm specifically talking about single SH rates on reviews that are otherwise predominantly E/VH. And yes, I use to be very angry about it because I took it personally. Then, thanks to you, I realised that I shouldn't take it personally. There's nothing wrong with my review, it's just that some people on Ciao apply a different set of criteria than the norm, which could also happen in real life if consumers were to rate my reviews. They might rate it SH or even NH just because they couldn't find one particular detail, even though they might have found 125 other useful bits of information. To me, and to the majority of the people, that review would still be VH or at least H. For the awkward customer it would only be SH or NH. And I accept that now. These people exist and we have to learn to live with them.

And yes, I would notice overrating if it was a case of 98% SH ratings against one single VH or E. That however, never happens. I've never seen it anyway, have you?

I rate as I see fit. I do use websites for purchasing decisions, and therefore I know what "I" want in a review. My sales and marketing experience can tell me what the "mythical consumer" might also require in their decision making (although their background knowledge and experience will be different) This isn't nitpicking. If I had a simple piece of information, I could find that out by referring to the supplier in question or asking the reviewer if I thought that appropriate, and I would rate fairly - so if the information was abolutely KEY - i.e. I need to know XXXXX to make a purchasing decision, then I will rate lower, than if it is some piece of information I would like to know but is not critical.... I don't want 125 other bits of information, about the colour of the box or the address of customer services should I think my Mars bar is not satisfactory...I want the bits I want. 125 bits do not a VH make, although unfortunately on ciao, they apparently do, which is why we get these formulaic approach to review writing which can be a regurgitation of the basic business processes (click here, enter your account number, an email came, the driver arrived on time...in the box was a charger to plug it in, and on and on and zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz).

It's no wonder we get sheep rating TBH. I have seen a review blatantly bastardised from wikipedia getting E ratings overall. I rated it NH as it was copied and got dog's abuse. Was I wrong then, as everyone else rated it E thinking it was the authors own "hard" (!!!!) work? yet despite the fact I did provide evidence, I was apparently wrong, (or in the wrong clique, or something...)


"These people...that exist..." that's pretty offensive stuff for people who rate honestly. (and I do not think I am a "harsh" rater, by the same token I often rate VH when the review is overall SH or H, so if you spot that in "these people" you will see that there is no agenda attached to the rating.

I agree with CFM (second one of the day there Aaron...) and Drewboy, it isn't healthy to assume that just becuase a reviewer has mainly VH/E, that someone else's view point is not valid. I wouldn't accept such blinkered thinking in the workplace, and ratings have to be taken in context of that person's needs, experiences etc, or we are all wasting our time.

It's like losing your 100% feedback rating on ebay really, for an analogy, one day it will happen, if you trade often enough - and there is nowt you can do about it.

drewboy wrote:

No, I am not. What I DO think, is that people jump to the conclusion that its unjustified because they can see the rest of the ratesthe review has received.

Are you trying to tell me that people do see the deluge of VH's and it doesn't have an impact on what they themselves rate?

Of course they do, it is human nature, as otherwise they get nasty comments, reviews written about them or threads on TP websites..!!

Chuchy wrote:

Some people will always complain, no matter what, and they will pick holes in everything. There's no way of pleasing them, so don't even try. They seem to operate on a different set of values than the "norm" i.e. everybody else. They tend to be unpleasant. I'm sure you know the type. They're the ones I referred to as "awkward customers".

An awkward customer is the best customer you can get you know...

the 96% that don't complain just don't come back...I know which I would rather have

helencbradshaw wrote:

Chuchy wrote:

Some people will always complain, no matter what, and they will pick holes in everything. There's no way of pleasing them, so don't even try. They seem to operate on a different set of values than the "norm" i.e. everybody else. They tend to be unpleasant. I'm sure you know the type. They're the ones I referred to as "awkward customers".

An awkward customer is the best customer you can get you know...

the 96% that don't complain just don't come back...I know which I would rather have

I agree that we should all rate as we see fit BUT with one important consideration...the guidelines. Ciao have set out some rating guidelines and we need to has much as possible follow those guidelines while at the same time expressing our own standards of what we expect from a review.

This might be a small distinction but it is an important one. We must remember that this is a consumer review site and that entails a certain type of review will be acceptable. I rate reviews with this in mind... a VH book review on a consumer review site will not and shoiuld not contain the same detail that a literary analysis will.

All I'm saying is that people should rate as they see fit by their own stadards BUT remember that those standards have to be appropriate for the site and should generally conform to Ciao expectations as set out in the guidelines.

On the theme of inappropriate rating I think someone just doesn't know how to rate on Ciao.

I won't name names but someone just rated a CD reviews as OT (from an average of VH) because they didn't like the presentation, e.g. track by track reviewing, now if you don't like presentation you down rate by one rating (two possibly) but this is crazy. I think they need to read Ciao's guide on rating.

eljimbob wrote:

On the theme of inappropriate rating I think someone just doesn't know how to rate on Ciao.

I won't name names but someone just rated a CD reviews as OT (from an average of VH) because they didn't like the presentation, e.g. track by track reviewing, now if you don't like presentation you down rate by one rating (two possibly) but this is crazy. I think they need to read Ciao's guide on rating.

Why would they rate OT (off topic)? That's a bit weird...

I don't like track by track reviews but I don't usually rate down as long as the review as all the info I feel I need. I don't tend to rate down on style/ presentation issues unless it really makes the review hard to understand.

Ciao's Favourite Member wrote:

Chuchy wrote:

So you're saying that there's no such thing as an unjustified negative rate? If that's the case anybody could pick any holes in any review justifying an overall negative rate (SH/NH).

No, but what's unjustified to you might not be unjustified to others. For example, as a consumer, I want my information delivered immediately and clearly. If a review cannot offer this to me, I leave the review and rate based on what I've gained from the review before giving up. Usually this happens on longer reviews and the information I get is not a lot.

You might consider that unjustified. I do not.

Ok, so someone picks one of your reviews and rates it SH with a comment saying it's not a good review because of whatever. You think it's a good review and everybody else thinks it's a good review. How would you react?

Chuchy wrote:

Ok, so someone picks one of your reviews and rates it SH with a comment saying it's not a good review because of whatever. You think it's a good review and everybody else thinks it's a good review. How would you react?

I don't have problems with people not finding my review helpful. You can't please everyone, so in an ideal world, there are always going to be people that don't gain much from a review. As I've said elsewhere on this board, I write for myself and those people that have similar experiences and requirements from the products I review. These people will, I hope, find my reviews VH. Other people won't. I accept that.

The only time I get peeved is when people rate reviews due to disagreement with what I'm saying (differences of opinion that is, not factually incorrect reviews) because that's against Ciao's rating guidelines.

Chuchy wrote:

Ok, so someone picks one of your reviews and rates it SH with a comment saying it's not a good review because of whatever. You think it's a good review and everybody else thinks it's a good review. How would you react?

Realistically it would be too big-headed of me to think that my review is good. I do however, hope that it is at least helpful.

Then if I feel this member is right with regards to something that I could include then I make the appropriate changes perhaps welcome them to a re-read of the review. I will consider whether the revision is to the extent that other members ratings should be re-considered, I can't automatically that simply because I add more I deserve ratings so I am careful.

If I have a stance towards not including something then I will notify them that I refuse to make changes but have no problem with the rating.

EDIT: Also mirror CFM's post, I'm surprised when members give the lowest ratings because they disagree with the opinion.

Ciao's Favourite Member wrote:

I don't have problems with people not finding my review helpful. You can't please everyone, so in an ideal world, there are always going to be people that don't gain much from a review. As I've said elsewhere on this board, I write for myself and those people that have similar experiences and requirements from the products I review. These people will, I hope, find my reviews VH. Other people won't. I accept that.

The only time I get peeved is when people rate reviews due to disagreement with what I'm saying (differences of opinion that is, not factually incorrect reviews) because that's against Ciao's rating guidelines.

Wow, if that's true, I'm very impressed. Personally, I would be at least a little bit annoyed myself. I might even think of revenge rating, though would probably not do it as I consider that too sleazy. But I would definitely be annoyed.

Would you still be interested in rating that person's reviews, provided that they are about subjects that interest you? And if so, would you still give them fair/impartial rates?

scream4bruce wrote:

Then if I feel this member is right with regards to something that I could include then I make the appropriate changes perhaps welcome them to a re-read of the review.

What if this members just says it's not a good review period?

chuchy wrote:

Wow, if that's true, I'm very impressed. Personally, I would be at least a little bit annoyed myself. I might even think of revenge rating, though would probably not do it as I consider that too sleazy. But I would definitely be annoyed.

Would you still be interested in rating that person's reviews, provided that they are about subjects that interest you? And if so, would you still give them fair/impartial rates?

I don't read by author, I read by topic so if the author writes a review on something that I find interesting or need to know more about, I'll read it.

There are some members I don't read, but that's more to do with them not giving me what I want from a review rather than any kind of social avoidance (although there are some that Ciao forbid me to read). I'd still go back from time to time to see if they've changed, but that's not something that's regular.

Well I will message and ask this member why it is not a good review, and ask what would make for an improvement. With every rating there should be a case to answer for, they should be offering constructive criticism, but that kind of comment is suspect.

EDITED.

Ciao's Favourite Member wrote:

if the author writes a review on something that I find interesting or need to know more about, I'll read it.

And are you able to rate those reviews (written by people who have previously given you negative rates) without prejudice? I know I can't, so I choose not to read those people at all.

scream4bruce wrote:

Well I will message and ask this member why it is not a good review, and ask what would make for an improvement. With every rating there should be a case to answer for, they should be offering constructive criticism, but that kind of comment is suspect.

And what if you feel intimidated by this member because of the way they profile themselves on Ciao? Would you still confront him/her directly?

Chuchy wrote:

And are you able to rate those reviews (written by people who have previously given you negative rates) without prejudice? I know I can't, so I choose not to read those people at all.

Yes. I find it quite easy to take a step backwards.

I've received a SH from someone before because my review didn't cover the areas specific to their requirements, but when I read one of theirs at a later date I gave them an E (rare for me but hey!) because their review answered every single question I had, and was combined with personal humour and excellent writing skills.

The rate I received wasn't done for revenge it was justifable so why should I return the SH rate when their review deserved better.

kelr101 wrote:

I've received a SH from someone before because my review didn't cover the areas specific to their requirements, but when I read one of theirs at a later date I gave them an E (rare for me but hey!) because their review answered every single question I had, and was combined with personal humour and excellent writing skills.

The rate I received wasn't done for revenge it was justifable so why should I return the SH rate when their review deserved better.

That's very good of you indeed. Especially that you could see that the SH was justifiable.

It's honest and that's the way I rate.

To be honest I rarely use Ciao nowadays as the sweet sickly pat my back and I'll pat your back ratings seriously annoy me.

I've just read some reviews that are so atrocious I'm surprised they received H's, yet at least 20 members thought them worthy of VH. Perhaps that's my own personal opinion, but to be it reeks of sheep rating.

I rate in accordance with how useful the review is to me - and I will always always always honestly rate, regardless of the ratings I receive.

Mauri wrote:

I agree that we should all rate as we see fit BUT with one important consideration...the guidelines. Ciao have set out some rating guidelines and we need to has much as possible follow those guidelines while at the same time expressing our own standards of what we expect from a review.

This might be a small distinction but it is an important one. We must remember that this is a consumer review site and that entails a certain type of review will be acceptable. I rate reviews with this in mind... a VH book review on a consumer review site will not and shoiuld not contain the same detail that a literary analysis will.

All I'm saying is that people should rate as they see fit by their own stadards BUT remember that those standards have to be appropriate for the site and should generally conform to Ciao expectations as set out in the guidelines.

I agree, I do rate within guidelines, and I am not a particularly "harsh" rater. I know what I like out of a book review and if it is brief plot outline, and decent info to tempt me, then it has done its job.