DIANA AND DODI - years afterwards.

I thought you had to be dead to be a saint.

Really?

Roger Moore was the Saint and he is still alive.

Gotta say I do agree with Jill though.

Lunah_c wrote:

A person would need extra help to solve that and it is not as though they could just say one day, OK, I will never wash my hands again.

Actually, that basically is the way to stop an OCD - doesn't matter, that's not the point though. I was arguing about the compulsion aspect.
Yeah - Jill put it a lot better than I did. Lunah, you talk about the fact that if people really are ashamed of doing something, then they will stop doing it - that's just not the case. That opinion, I'm afraid, looks at human nature in a very black and white manner.
The reality is that being 'ashamed' can be outweighed by many other factors - including an individual's enjoyment/satisfaction of whatever it they feel ashamed of.

Black and White is the best way. Things are either right or wrong. Colourful means compromises and then all sorts of problems arise.

At the end of the day they (my posts in this thread)are just my thoughts. I'm not telling you to accept them, but I'm just saying. I cannot say you are wrong, so don't tell me I am.

Lunah_c wrote:

Black and White is the best way. Things are either right or wrong. Colourful means compromises and then all sorts of problems arise.

Wow, that's so close minded. Things are either right or wrong? I honestly don't know what to say to that - It's an incredibly surprising point of view. And 'colourful means compromises'? - Good lord, would you rather live in a Big Brother environment then - law being based on the pretences of what is right and wrong, with no intermediates?
I could give an example to show that choices are rarely made on 'black and white' opinions... but then - every decision made is like that, isn't it?
I find it very difficult to believe that you only think in terms of 'right and wrong'.

Lunah_c wrote:

At the end of the day they (my posts in this thread)are just my thoughts. I'm not telling you to accept them, but I'm just saying. I cannot say you are wrong, so don't tell me I am.

Ah, so if you can't tell me I'm wrong... I must be right then! Beauty of 'black and white'. Or wait... was that a shade of grey, an intermediate? I think it was, Lunah.
But of course - this is your point of view and I do not think you are 'wrong'. I just disagree strongly.

I can't tell you that you are wrong because everyone needs to decide for themselves.....stop being nitpicking!

Lunah_c wrote:

I can't tell you that you are wrong because everyone needs to decide for themselves.....stop being nitpicking!

But....if everyone needs to decide for themselves, then there will be a range of opinions, not two, (or BLACK and WHITE), but lots of shades in between.....which contradicts the Black and White theory - no?

I have to say I have a problem when it comes to eating. If I start eating, I find it very hard to stop, which is why I try to avoid eating until as late as possible in the day. I am ashamed of my eating problem (I wont call it a disorder as I think it is more of a habit I need to get out of) but it does not mean I can stop it just like that.

When I smoked I was ashamed but I did not stop smoking until one day I found enough strength to do it. So really you can be ashamed of smoking and still smoke. You can be ashamed of over eating but still over eat. I am more annoyed that my will power is not strong enough to tell my mind I do not need to eat as much as I do, but I will conqeur this and lose wieght again when I convince myself to do so.

What annoys me even more is people who judge me and say things like "You eating again?" and "Every time I see you, you are eating!" when all that does is make me feel ashamed and then I eat more. People telling people to stop smoking will just make them more determined to smoke and when you do feel ashamed of something you tend to turn to some kind of comfort to hide the fact, which is usually the thing you are ashamed of doing so it becomes a vicious circle and one that people who have no idea what is going through an individuals mind should not judge on.

I bet there is not a person here who has no skeletons and if a royal smoking is such a major thing in anyones life that they should be annoyed about it, I suggest they trun their attention closer to home and sort out their own closets before the skeleton becomes skeletons.

I do not believe that being ashamed of something and being able to stop doing it go hand in hand. Nothing is as simple as that.

Wot Sam said 5 posts up.

I love Angus.

Lunah - I wouldn't presume to tell you that your opinions are wrong. Definitely not. I don't agree with many of your opinions to be honest, but that's besides the point. And anyway, I rather admire the way you're so often out on a limb but are still prepared to argue your point.

However, if you're misusing a word, I will presume to tell you that your use of it is wrong. You're misusing the word "shame". Having shame or being ashamed does not imply action or inaction on the subject of the shame. It's simply a word to express an emotion.

Your opinions aren't wrong - whether I agree with them or not, but your use of the language is, and that's nothing to do with anyone's opinion.

On the subject of shame...

It's my personal observation that people who feel shame are less likely to STOP doing the thing that is making them feel the shame and MORE likely to do it in secret. Especially smoking and other addictions or compulsions, such as drug addiction, eating disorders and some forms of self-harm.

Jill Murphy wrote:

On the subject of shame...

It's my personal observation that people who feel shame are less likely to STOP doing the thing that is making them feel the shame and MORE likely to do it in secret. Especially smoking and other addictions or compulsions, such as drug addiction, eating disorders and some forms of self-harm.

............and that is exactly what I said about 3 pages back. That someone who is ashmaed of their behaviour tends to do it in secret!


Case Closed!

I'll refer to my earlier OCD point and extend the example. Washing your hands in a restaraunt isn't just about washing them, it's about getting up, crossing the restaraunt for the fifth or sixth time, then entering the bathroom door.
Just like smoking isn't only the bit where you light up. You have to buy the cigarettes in public, have the cravings and smell fairly strongly of smoke afterwards... plenty of time to feel ashamed there too. In fact, I imagine this is where people who are ashamed of smoking are subject to the greatest quantity of shame. It doesn't really matter if you do it in secret or not -'committing the act' is only one half of the crime, if you see what I'm getting at.

I think there's also a difference between embarassment and shame.

The OCD hand washing may cause the victim (if you'll excuse the word) and his friends or family embarassment. If, on the otherhand, his behaviour in some way hurts someone else (though I struggle to see how in this particular example) he may feel shame about his behaviour.

Another (real life example) - I am embarassed and upset that I spilled beer on my laptop yesterday. I am ashamed of my reaction (I fled the house, fearing I'd be yelled at - and I'm in my late 30s!).

mattygroves wrote:

may feel shame about his behaviour.

Another (real life example) - I am embarassed and upset that I spilled beer on my laptop yesterday. I am ashamed of my reaction (I fled the house, fearing I'd be yelled at - and I'm in my late 40s!).

Was it another Ciao meet then?

mattygroves wrote:

Another (real life example) - I am embarassed and upset that I spilled beer on my laptop yesterday. I am ashamed of my reaction (I fled the house, fearing I'd be yelled at - and I'm in my late 50s!).

Hope it was not damaged.

Yes, it's damaged. I won't know how badly until it fully dries up.

I want to weep.

Will you guys please stop aging me!

get the house insurance policy out and check the terms

I feel 102

Poor Matty. Angus made me spill tea all over my keyboard yesterday ! Hope it dries out ok.

mattygroves wrote:

I feel 102

Did you get a telegram from the Queen?

Computer, apparently, turned on this morning - fingers crossed (I feel younger now...)